New guy in SC

[johnndeanna]

Hey all,

I wanted to take a moment to introduce myself. My name is John and I hail from just south of Charlotte, NC across the SC border. I have been an RC flyer for a lot of years but I am at the point where my interest in scale modeling is taking over from sport flying. As a member of RCSCALEBUILDER.COM I recently had asked a question concerning use of a bandsaw over a scroll saw, and a PM from a member of this forum (ARUP) prompted me to take a look at soaring versus powered flight. I have to say I am amazed at what I have seen thus far.

Coming from power and smaller planes I have a HUGE desire to move into larger scale planes. I was looking at powered aircraft and after looking at this website and the scalesoaring.co.uk site I have to admit I think this is where I want to be. I love to build, and large scale powered planes tend to really add up in cost once you factor in all of the additional equipment you need just to get a plane flying (retracts, engine, air system, etc.). What I think I like best about what I've seen here is the ability to fly something a LOT more relaxing. Granted no slope soaring near me that I know of, but plenty of flying fields local to me that could easily support soaring.

I think I have made up my mind concerning the switch from powered flight to soaring. Now I need to decide on a good first bird. The UK site has a lot of free plans out there and I know there are a lot of other plans for sale. I'd be interested in hearing opinions on a good first bird. I think I'd prefer something non-Gull wing, and an era is not really that important, though through my browsing I have taken a liking to the birds of the 20s through 50s. While the modern birds are nice, I do like the look of the older planes. Let me know what you think is a good first plane. 3M to 4M is about where I'd like to be initially.

Thanks to ARUP for the link to the site.

John Martin
Fort Mill, SC

[lenb]

Hi John,
Welcome to the website and forums, happy to have you here.
The area you are in would be a good area to start some activity in. I know there are a couple guys in that vicinity, we'll have to hook you guys up.
The best way to get into a "first" scale sailplane economically is to build it yourself, especially if you love to build as you stated.

Size wise, I will be the first to harp on the 4-6m span bandwagon. Its not even worth building anything smaller than 4m since you'll get discouraged when the plane can't handle a little wind, or is hard to see at altitude , etc etc.
So with that said, I will steer you in the direction of one of these three kits.

Peter Goldsmith Designs. 1-26

http://forum.scalesoaring.com/forum/aerotowing-slope-scale-soaring/scale-sailplanes/22288-schweizer-1-26e-~-1-2-5-scale-kit-by-peter-goldsmith-build-thread-by-jimd

Peter Goldsmith Designs Slingsby Swallow ( two build threads going )

http://forum.scalesoaring.com/forum/aerotowing-slope-scale-soaring/scale-sailplanes/24900-another-t45-swallow-slingsby

http://forum.scalesoaring.com/forum/aerotowing-slope-scale-soaring/scale-sailplanes/21246-slingsby-t-45-swallow-~-1-3-scale-kit-by-peter-goldsmith-build-thread-by-jimd

Aviation Concepts 2-33

http://forum.scalesoaring.com/forum/aerotowing-slope-scale-soaring/scale-sailplanes/14351-aviation-concepts-1-3-scale-schweizer-2-33-~-build-thread-by-jimd

The first two are easy to build kits available from me, the third is a detailed scale ship available from Gunny, at Aviation Concepts

Looking forwards to hearing what you decide to build and hopefully see you at an event somewhere this summer.
If you have specific questions or need more info on the kits, please feel free to reach out.
Lbuff1@comcast.net

[johnndeanna]

Len,

I appreciate the information and have looked at all 4 building threads. I have decided that I am going to do the Swallow. I look very enjoyable to build. I hope to get started within the next couple weeks. It'll be a relatively slow build due to my daughter being heavily involved in travel volleyball and travel softball through July. We have 4 volleyball tournaments and 2 softball tourneys between now and mid-Jun so free time is hard to come by sometimes.

I did manage to free up time this weekend to get the garage space mostly in order and get my tools somewhat organized. I need to build a movable workbench before I start the build. My current bench is 8'x10' and L-shaped and isn't really conducive to a build of this size. That's a single Saturday to get that done so no biggie there. I'm picking up a band saw and belt/disc sander on Saturday and will mount those to the existing bench at one end.

Thanks for the time thus far and look forward to one day being able to get my first sailplane out the door and flying. I'll start a build thread on the forum once I get started. I'd be interested in being in contact with any other individuals near me that soar.

John

[lenb]

Check your PM box John

[ARUP]

Hi John! I am very excited to see you post your interest in soaring on here! You will just love flying scale sailplanes! The fliers that do this are the most laid back and fun bunch of folks you will ever meet! There is no competition and that is the key. The Swallow is a great flying sailplane so you won't be disappointed. You should see Gunny's 2-33 bird when he flies it. He has his down to a 'T' and lands it at his feet every time! It's amazing! If you get a chance to make the Horizon Aerotow by all means go. I'll let you fly my sailplanes and I'm sure others will let you fly theirs.

[gunny11]

https://www.aviationconceptsrc.com

[johnndeanna]

Okay, I have a question regarding speedbrakes/spoilers. Do most people set these up on a switch to go from full off to full on or are these set up to be used incrementally? I ask since going from powered flight we now have a throttle channel that is not used for anything. I would think setting up the speedbrakes/spoliers on the throttle channel would give you great control of how much they deploy. With my first scale sailplane starting it's tidbit like this that I find important. I'd be interested to hear how folks set this up.

John Martin

[Joespeeder]

Hi John,

Welcome !! and don't listen to me.... lol. I'm no expert, I'm a warbird guy that flys sailplanes and wanted to not get confused.

Typically, real sailplane guys set the spoilers up to mimic the Throttle stick movement. Down is spoilers closed and up(full throttle) is spoilers open. It matches the action of the spoiler on the wing. You can control how much you need and how they are deployed with the Throttle stick that way.

A switch would be too dramatic and uncontrolled for me.

However, being a power guy I'm used to Throttle stick forward is fast.

I'm in between both types of aircraft a lot and mostly power flights. I understand why sailplanes are set up the way they are but at some point I would get confused so I set my sailplanes up with Throttle stick forward is spoilers closed(fast) and close the throttle to slow down(spoilers deployed) to keep things similar from my power to sailplanes. Pull the Throttle closed and whatever I'm flying is coming down.

You are correct, use the Throttle/Spoiler stick as you would normally to control your decent. Forward is fast, Closed is Slow...

One thing I've noticed is many 1st time spoiler flyers tend to put them out all the way and leave them. That can be dramatic as they generally work very well to kill lift. Deploy them about 1/3 to 1/2 and fly the plane. If you need more pull all the way to idle(spoiler out fully) and if it's coming down too fast go full throttle.

I know I'm backwards from a real sailplane set up, but my muscle memory is set and I'm old....

It works for me. Honestly, I could fly with them set the other way but I don't want to translate movements in my head.

Joe


BTW, remember the sailplane needs to fly. Meaning it does need some airspeed to fly. I've seen lots of guys deploy either flaps or spoilers and try to get the aircraft to fly at almost 0 airspeed. You may need some down stick, maybe not, but don't try to stop the aircraft in the air. allow it to fly and use the reduced lift to help you place it where you want on the runway.

[jgallacher]

Joe you are correct full throttle stick is spoiler closed and throttle down is spoiler open.
Jim

[Tom]

Joe you are correct full throttle stick is spoiler closed and throttle down is spoiler open.
Jim

Incorrect.......these are sailplanes so there is no “throttle” stick......that stick is the “spoiler” stick.....and like the spoiler when the stick is down the spoiler is down and when the stick is up the spoiler is up.......why makes thing confusing and have up be down and down be up?

[Tom McP]

I fly with my left thumb resting on the left (throttle/spoiler) stick which is full forward (up). When I turn I roll in with aileron and thumb in the rudder I need in the direction of the turn. On approach, I switch to two fingers on the left stick and pull to raise or push to lower the spoiler as needed, while using rudder. Seems perfectly natural and I'm much less likely to introduce some unwanted rudder or spoiler motion during the largest portion of the flight.

It's a mostly faded memory now but I seem to remember pulling the spoiler handle to raise the spoilers and pushing it forward to close them when I flew full scale in the early 60's.

Tom

[Joespeeder]

Hey Guys,

lol.... I knew I'd start an argument on which way to move the stick.

Thats why I prefaced it by saying I do it "wrong" but it works for me.

On my airplanes throttle/spoiler stick forward is always fast. Pulling the stick to the bottom of its travel is slow or loosing altitude.

Other people with lots more time on sailplanes like it the other way since the stick follows the actual deployment of the spoiler surface.

I'm still getting use to flying around with no spiny thing up front and really enjoying myself.

Enjoy your journey into a very cool part of the hobby!

Joe

BTW, Tom McP, that's exactly how I fly. When Sleeping Bear dunes was easier to fly (before Gov regs) I found it was easier for me to fly this way. Just felt so natural zooming around in slope lift that it became my standard. My 9lb Windrider Habicht flys exactly like a 60 sized warbird in the 9-13lb range. Just let the nose drop a bit in the turns and that stick forward style felt so natural.

What at other arguments can I start... Hmmmm... Tray? Pinch or Thumb? Electric vs glow vs gas? 4 stroke or 2? Maybe elevated ailerons for fake washout? 😜😂😂

Horses for courses. 😃

[lenb]

I'm in the throttle stick forward is closed camp,

Think of it this way, with the throttle stick full up, the plane is going fast with the spoilers retracted into the wing, just like a power plane at full throttle. As you come in to land, the throttle stick is pulled back like a power plane and the sailplane starts to slow down and sink . If you need more lift for longer glide, you put the throttle forward ( the spoilers go away ) and the plane picks up and carries on. It works really well.

It's too bad its not standard, but most of the Scale guys will do it this way, ( I say most, there are some that just can't seem to get it right )
I've flown a LOT of friends sailplanes and pretty much everyone I fly with use the forward position for fully retracted.

While we're stirring up dust, your duel rate switches should be full up position is high rate, low position ( switch down) is LOW rate. Pretty standard.
Tow release on the top left back switch ( Retract switch in power planes.)

I hope some of this helps out and makes sense.

Whatever works for you is also another way to do it. lol

LEN

[Asher Carmichael]

Actually, spoilers are used to “increase” rate of decent “without increasing” airspeed(Wikipedia). If increasing something is the parameter, then pushing the stick forward increases the rate of decent without increasing airspeed. I’m in the the minority, maligned, stick forward for spoilers up camp........and acknowledgedly wrong.😉

[lenb]

I'd love to agree with you on this Asher, however with these scale representations os full size aircraft, the parasitic drag induced by the deployment of the spoilers can not be overcome by the sheer mass of the sailplane as in full scale. ( I made that up, but it sounds pretty good)

[hello82]

welcome to the club of sailplanes John!...hope to meet you soon at some of the meets...always a blast.

I have done the spoiler thing both ways. In my earlier days before I flew powered planes, throttle/spoiler in left stick , I had it function like the elevator in my right hand. Left hand pulls back and spoilers were put away and plane went up, push forward and spoilers were raised and plane went down, like the elevator function....but now after a 25 year hiatus...I got back into powered warbirds, then 10 years later sailplanes....and Len and the guys told me of this other way, of the opposite set up, and it felt much more natural now because of flying so much powered airplanes, and it acting like the throttle stick I had come to get used too...and mainly pretty much only use spoilers on landing. And since I still fly powered too, it seems to work in tandem.

In the end in matters mostly what you want to do and feel of course...but it sure helps at the field if you run into a problem, or need training help , and someone else needs to take the hold of your transmitter quickly, if they are are set up similar to the majority. Same with tow release, on left toggle, gear on right toggle, ....

Scott S hipped me to having ALL switches pushed forward at beginning of flight take off too, makes it easy and quick on the flight line to know you are all set with no thinking of what goes where...things happen quickly out there with tow planes landing and other sailplanes having to land with no option to go around....so if you like to have flaps mixed in for towing take off take off, with a hair bit of extra up elevator or down elevator, the first mode of the 3 mode switch, full forward is take off mode...etc

what ever you choose...it will be fun!

Matt

[Joespeeder]

Hey Matt,

I was taught the same "all switches forward" for a base position for taking off.

Makes things simple and I've done it on enough planes that when I do have some weird thing that needs to be different it makes seeing the odd switch position easy at the preflight glance.

I have a ME-163 that I needed a take off elevator trim on my flap swithch. Since I don't have flaps on the 163 normal flight mode is "flap switch closed/up". For take off I have all switches forward as normal, then switch to take off mode by using the flap switch to re-trim the elevator to a preset increased up elevator position.

After take off I release the dolly and the trim change keeps me from relaxing my attention and letting the nose drop in those first couple of seconds. It's weird for that particular plane and my inability to release the dolly without the plane looking like a full scale Spitfire as it proposes up and down as the pilot cranks the landing gear up. Once I'm on my way I "close the flaps" and normal flight mode is everything forward...

Switches forward is my norm so I can see what's set immediately.

One other item, Depending on your comfort level with various switches and considering how you react when panicked. Sometimes I put a small bit of silicone fuel tubing over the stick of my Tow Release switch. I have several transmitters including a Dx5e which I use for the little Parkzone Ka-8 registration #TK-421 lol.... That transmitter gets passed to many intro pilots and the fuel tubing means they don't have to think if they need to release early or even if they just forget which switch to use. They can feel they are on the correct switch as soon as they touch it. I've done it both ways with tubing and without. The tubing is a nice tactile reassurance you are grabbing the correct switch when things are going bad.

Joe